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Thought for the Day: Kiddush and Kiddush b'Makom S'uda -- They are Different

The following is some of what I learned from the shiur given by R' Fuerst, shlita, on Sunday, Nov 1. That shiur (as well as his other Sunday morning shiurim), is available at, Kiddush B'Makom Seudah.  There are some directly applicable הלכה למעשה new thoughts here; you should listen to the shiur yourself and/or CYLOR before altering your behavior.

The background is that there is a Torah obligation of kiddush on Friday nights and a rabbinic obligation for Yom Tov evenings and all Shabbos and Yom Tov days.  The Torah obligation can be satisfied by words alone, but Chazal wine and a meal to be involved.  We are not going to discuss the obligation of wine vs other beverages vs bread; assume you have wine in sufficient quantity.  Chazal also required that kiddush be recited at the onset and as part of a meal; a requirement affectionately known to all of us as kiddush b'makom s'uda.  The requirement is so strong, in fact, that Chazal have exercised their G-d Given right to take away your fulfillment of the Torah obligation of kiddush if you do not make kiddush with a meal.  So far, nothing new; all well known stuff.  Ho hum.

One more thing... one is not allowed to eat before kiddush; certainly not Friday night (not even water), certainly not after davening (before davening, CYLOR).  Not usually a big deal, as you are going to have a meal with kiddush anyway; kiddush b'makom s'uda, after all.  Now the fun starts.  I always ("always", he says... like he grew up knowing about kiddush...)... ok, ok... since I've known about kiddush, I have assumed that kiddush b'makom s'uda meant: if there ain't a s'uda, it ain't kiddush.  That is, "makom s'uda" is a detail in the practical implementation of kiddush, like wine.  R' Moshe says, nope.  (In yiddush, of course.)  Kiddush is one thing, kiddush b'makom s'uda is another thing.  Chazal require you to make kiddush b'makom s'uda, but they don't forbid you from making just plain kiddush, either.  Why would you want to make kiddush and then some time later make kiddush b'makom s'uda?

Pesach morning.  Let's say you daven early (vasikin, say), so you are finished at like 7:06AM or so.  The rest of your family, however, aren't even up yet (except those adorable grandchildren... I have the best time with them that time of morning).  Also, you don't have m'zonos because you don't bruck.  You also don't really feel like washing for a full s'uda now, as you want to eat with your family.  No problem, says R' Moshe, just make kiddush and have some fruit and candy; kiddush lets you eat, after all, and you'll make kiddush b'makom s'uda later.

You'll say, Hey!  In that case the Mishna Brura already brings that you can have a full r'vi'is (better two revi'os) of wine and still fulfill the minimum requirement for kiddush b'makom s'uda.  Fine.  Suppose you are at kiddush Shabbos morning after shul and just want a little to eat so you don't spoil your appetite for the coming meal at home.  Or you are on a diet and don't want to eat cake; you only want candy and fruit.  Or you can't eat wheat products and there is no spelt cake at shul.  And you can't have a full r'vi'is (better two revi'os) of wine because only the rav is drinking a little grape juice and no more than a sip is being passed around.

I am sure you can think of other applications.


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